Intel two months before launch in late 2023: "lol, you believed us again?!"
Basically every rumor site on the world realized Intel's 2021 slide was impossible. Intel is the only company that will loudly proclaim CPU specifications 2+ years in advance.
Sadly, Pat Gelsinger was Intel C-suite during its anti-trust era; transparency and accuracy aren't in his dictionary.
What's especially embarrassing is that Intel only fabs ~25% of the Meteor Lake SoC (the Compute Tile on Intel 4). The Compute Tile is estimated at 39.92 mm2, out of a edge-to-edge 174.87 mm2
So even if TSMC fabs 75% of Meteor Lake, it's a disaggregated SoC, Intel wanted it to ship on desktop, but still Intel 4 can't ramp HVM for desktop-sized Compute Tile's (which is just +2 more P-cores & +8 E-cores).
Intel 4 struggling to HVM ship 40+ mm2 dies appears to be another warning sign. Reply
Intel is very well able to Socket Package a Mobile Processor as I'm still using an HP Probook 4540S with a Socket Packaged Core i7 3632QM "Mobile" Processor. And AMD has intentionally not released any Ryzen 6000G or Ryzen 7000G Socket Packaged "Desktop" APUs and is instead making its APU offerings with the more powerful iGPUs, BGA/OEM Only. There are now 2 AMD Ryzen 7040 series based Minisforum and BeeLink Mini Desktop PCs that are offering systems with Ryzen 7040 BGA Packaged APUs and with cTDPs of 70 Watts, and 5 more watts than the last of the socket packaged desktop APUs(Ryzen 5000G series at 65W).
This is a Marketing/OEM driven move here from both Intel and AMD to the detriment of DIY and favoring OEMs for Very Small Form Factor system builds. DIY end users are effectively thrown under the bus for any future DIY friendly Very Small Form Factor builds using Socket Packaged APUs/SOCs with Powerful iGPUs that where very Popular for Small Form Factor Builds by DIY end users. Reply
There will be desktop APUs coming to AM5 eventually. There has been no equivalent from Intel. If AMD threw users under the bus, Intel is driving miles behind the bus.Reply
AMD would release new mobile desktop APU's if there were demand but their "previous" gen is still so far ahead of Iris they can't be bothered to release something that doesn't need to exist.Reply
Vega 7 is at parity with Iris though, and that is all that has made it to LGA. I think you're misunderstanding how weak AMD's iGPU offerings on desktop are.Reply
Except it's not impossible for "Meteor lake with Foveros" to go from 5 to 125 W. That's demonstrated by "Alder Lake" ranging from 6 to 150 W. The mention of "Foveros" doesn't change the situation.
Intel simply chose not to bring Meteor Lake to desktop. The reason the rumor sites were filled with rumors of that was because of leaked slides that said so. Why Intel decided on this course of action is open to speculation. Poor yields on Intel 4? Delay of Meteor Lake? Acceleration of Intel 20A? Simply a more thorough analysis of introducing two products rapidly in succession in the same market space versus skipping one of the products? But one speculative reason that doesn't make sense for why they won't do it is that the architecture can't range from 5 to 125 W.Reply
There are not many things in Meteor Lake that were going to move the needle in Desktop, with a much higher power envelope and many people using discrete GPU’s. If EUV production and engineering design resources were constrained it probably made sense to just refresh the existing platform. That gives them another year to use their older fab assets. I just wish they would support entry level workstation and server platforms so OEM’s can stop selling 10th gen systems.Reply
And so any Inwin Chopin or ASRock Desk Mini Very Small For Factor DIY(Socket Packaged Processors needed) system builds have to remain at Ryzen 5000G(Vega 8) and Intel ADL/RPL with that 96EU integrated Graphics.
And Both AMD(No Ryzen 6000G or 7000G) and Intel(No Meteor Lake S) have gone all BGA only and that's by extension OEM only there. This is Anti DIY and Pro OEM and both AMD and Intel are intentionally doing this to favor OEMs over DIY! Reply
My guesses A) It doesn't scale well with increased power envelope and gets hotter than 13th gen when applying >250W B) The design is too optimized for efficiency and its peak performance is worse than what AMD offers C) Patching for "Downfall" caused too much performance loss on an otherwise high performance chip D) Some kind of problem with adding 20x PCIe gen5 lanes that they couldn't fix with their first stab at chiplet designReply
E) The packaging is so damn expensive that it doesn't make sense in the more cost focused Desktop market, but makes sense in the higher margin mobile (and server) space(s).Reply
E) Qualifying it to work in existing boards would have been a huge pain for the small portion of the market who would be using it (i.e. not using Raptor Lake-S or Alder Lake-S or BGA Meteor Lake-S), adding a whole new non-compatible socket board series would have been a huge waste of effort only to be replaced with LGA1851, and qualifying it to work with LGA1851 boards would also have been a huge pain (e.g. ending up selling boards without CPUs able to take advantage of the new extra CPU lanes for SSDs). Intel have avoided having non-cross-compatible series when possible, IIRC the last time that broke was back with Sandy Bridge B/Q65 not supporting Ivy Bridge. Releasing as BGA-only means whatever chipset it is compatible with can have Meteor Lake-only features without worrying about incompatibility with other CPUs. Reply
It's a little more complex than just "laptop CPUs in desktops". Arrow Lake-S (i.e. NOT Arrow Lake-H), not a mobile part, will be available. It won't be /socketed/ Arrow Lake-S, but it will still be a desktop part like all other past non-socketed -S lines previously, with desktop chipsets and desktop power limits. Reply
Quote : "The rationale behind Intel's decision to exclude Meteor Lake processors from socketed desktops remains ambiguous."
The market is tiny, that's why. A few boutique builders making "home media servers" for their friends is not it - these are so small scale that they don't even make their own boards (if they did they could use the product..)
These high end laptop chips are not going to be able to satisfy for games, so there's next to no market in the performance pc space.
I think this is only news because A. it's news. and B. there's a psychological relucance for the bigPC croud to accept that Intel is making products that are not aimed directly at them.Reply
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ikjadoon - Thursday, September 28, 2023 - link
Intel to all tech media in 2021: "Meteor Lake is a 5W to 125W microarchitecture."https://www.guru3d.com/data/publish/208/4d9fab114d...
Intel two months before launch in late 2023: "lol, you believed us again?!"
Basically every rumor site on the world realized Intel's 2021 slide was impossible. Intel is the only company that will loudly proclaim CPU specifications 2+ years in advance.
Sadly, Pat Gelsinger was Intel C-suite during its anti-trust era; transparency and accuracy aren't in his dictionary.
What's especially embarrassing is that Intel only fabs ~25% of the Meteor Lake SoC (the Compute Tile on Intel 4). The Compute Tile is estimated at 39.92 mm2, out of a edge-to-edge 174.87 mm2
So even if TSMC fabs 75% of Meteor Lake, it's a disaggregated SoC, Intel wanted it to ship on desktop, but still Intel 4 can't ramp HVM for desktop-sized Compute Tile's (which is just +2 more P-cores & +8 E-cores).
Intel 4 struggling to HVM ship 40+ mm2 dies appears to be another warning sign. Reply
FWhitTrampoline - Thursday, September 28, 2023 - link
Intel is very well able to Socket Package a Mobile Processor as I'm still using an HP Probook 4540S with a Socket Packaged Core i7 3632QM "Mobile" Processor. And AMD has intentionally not released any Ryzen 6000G or Ryzen 7000G Socket Packaged "Desktop" APUs and is instead making its APU offerings with the more powerful iGPUs, BGA/OEM Only. There are now 2 AMD Ryzen 7040 series based Minisforum and BeeLink Mini Desktop PCs that are offering systems with Ryzen 7040 BGA Packaged APUs and with cTDPs of 70 Watts, and 5 more watts than the last of the socket packaged desktop APUs(Ryzen 5000G series at 65W).This is a Marketing/OEM driven move here from both Intel and AMD to the detriment of DIY and favoring OEMs for Very Small Form Factor system builds. DIY end users are effectively thrown under the bus for any future DIY friendly Very Small Form Factor builds using Socket Packaged APUs/SOCs with Powerful iGPUs that where very Popular for Small Form Factor Builds by DIY end users. Reply
nandnandnand - Friday, September 29, 2023 - link
There will be desktop APUs coming to AM5 eventually. There has been no equivalent from Intel. If AMD threw users under the bus, Intel is driving miles behind the bus. ReplyTheinsanegamerN - Monday, October 2, 2023 - link
It's been over a year and you still believe that? ReplySamus - Monday, October 2, 2023 - link
AMD would release new mobile desktop APU's if there were demand but their "previous" gen is still so far ahead of Iris they can't be bothered to release something that doesn't need to exist. Replylmcd - Monday, October 9, 2023 - link
Vega 7 is at parity with Iris though, and that is all that has made it to LGA. I think you're misunderstanding how weak AMD's iGPU offerings on desktop are. ReplyYojimbo - Thursday, September 28, 2023 - link
Except it's not impossible for "Meteor lake with Foveros" to go from 5 to 125 W. That's demonstrated by "Alder Lake" ranging from 6 to 150 W. The mention of "Foveros" doesn't change the situation.Intel simply chose not to bring Meteor Lake to desktop. The reason the rumor sites were filled with rumors of that was because of leaked slides that said so. Why Intel decided on this course of action is open to speculation. Poor yields on Intel 4? Delay of Meteor Lake? Acceleration of Intel 20A? Simply a more thorough analysis of introducing two products rapidly in succession in the same market space versus skipping one of the products? But one speculative reason that doesn't make sense for why they won't do it is that the architecture can't range from 5 to 125 W. Reply
flgt - Thursday, September 28, 2023 - link
There are not many things in Meteor Lake that were going to move the needle in Desktop, with a much higher power envelope and many people using discrete GPU’s. If EUV production and engineering design resources were constrained it probably made sense to just refresh the existing platform. That gives them another year to use their older fab assets. I just wish they would support entry level workstation and server platforms so OEM’s can stop selling 10th gen systems. ReplyFWhitTrampoline - Thursday, September 28, 2023 - link
And so any Inwin Chopin or ASRock Desk Mini Very Small For Factor DIY(Socket Packaged Processors needed) system builds have to remain at Ryzen 5000G(Vega 8) and Intel ADL/RPL with that 96EU integrated Graphics.And Both AMD(No Ryzen 6000G or 7000G) and Intel(No Meteor Lake S) have gone all BGA only and that's by extension OEM only there. This is Anti DIY and Pro OEM and both AMD and Intel are intentionally doing this to favor OEMs over DIY! Reply
TheinsanegamerN - Monday, October 2, 2023 - link
I hope in win pays you for how much you simp over the chopin. Replymeacupla - Thursday, September 28, 2023 - link
My guessesA) It doesn't scale well with increased power envelope and gets hotter than 13th gen when applying >250W
B) The design is too optimized for efficiency and its peak performance is worse than what AMD offers
C) Patching for "Downfall" caused too much performance loss on an otherwise high performance chip
D) Some kind of problem with adding 20x PCIe gen5 lanes that they couldn't fix with their first stab at chiplet design Reply
dwillmore - Thursday, September 28, 2023 - link
E) The packaging is so damn expensive that it doesn't make sense in the more cost focused Desktop market, but makes sense in the higher margin mobile (and server) space(s). Replyedzieba - Friday, September 29, 2023 - link
E) Qualifying it to work in existing boards would have been a huge pain for the small portion of the market who would be using it (i.e. not using Raptor Lake-S or Alder Lake-S or BGA Meteor Lake-S), adding a whole new non-compatible socket board series would have been a huge waste of effort only to be replaced with LGA1851, and qualifying it to work with LGA1851 boards would also have been a huge pain (e.g. ending up selling boards without CPUs able to take advantage of the new extra CPU lanes for SSDs). Intel have avoided having non-cross-compatible series when possible, IIRC the last time that broke was back with Sandy Bridge B/Q65 not supporting Ivy Bridge. Releasing as BGA-only means whatever chipset it is compatible with can have Meteor Lake-only features without worrying about incompatibility with other CPUs. ReplyBvOvO - Monday, October 2, 2023 - link
F, meteor lake for desktop Replyedzieba - Friday, September 29, 2023 - link
It's a little more complex than just "laptop CPUs in desktops". Arrow Lake-S (i.e. NOT Arrow Lake-H), not a mobile part, will be available. It won't be /socketed/ Arrow Lake-S, but it will still be a desktop part like all other past non-socketed -S lines previously, with desktop chipsets and desktop power limits. Replyxol - Monday, October 2, 2023 - link
Quote : "The rationale behind Intel's decision to exclude Meteor Lake processors from socketed desktops remains ambiguous."The market is tiny, that's why. A few boutique builders making "home media servers" for their friends is not it - these are so small scale that they don't even make their own boards (if they did they could use the product..)
These high end laptop chips are not going to be able to satisfy for games, so there's next to no market in the performance pc space.
I think this is only news because A. it's news. and B. there's a psychological relucance for the bigPC croud to accept that Intel is making products that are not aimed directly at them. Reply
TheinsanegamerN - Monday, October 2, 2023 - link
The market is so tiny they keep releasing multiple desktop SKUs. SMH/. Replyxol - Tuesday, October 3, 2023 - link
what are you talking about? Reply